Marriage in the Modern Age: A Candid Conversation Between a Divorce Lawyer and a Celebrity Pastor

With Carl Lentz and James Sexton

In an era when the institution of marriage is under relentless scrutiny—its promises both exalted and questioned—a surprising dialogue has emerged between two unlikely interlocutors. On one side stands James Sexton, a divorce lawyer whose no-holds-barred approach has turned him into a viral sensation. Despite his minimal social media presence, Sexton’s following has ballooned by 600% since early 2024. On the other side is Carl Lentz, once the charismatic pastor of Hillsong NYC whose very public downfall and near-divorce catalyzed a personal renaissance. Today, along with his wife Laura, Lentz shares hard-won insights on relationships via a podcast that recently topped Apple’s documentary charts.

Their conversation, part of the “Mighty Pursuit” series, is not the sanitized sermon or legal pronouncement one might expect.¹ Instead, it is a sprawling, unapologetically raw exploration of what marriage means in a society that seems obsessed with both commitment and its dissolution. As Sexton and Lentz navigate the complex terrain of love, legal contracts, spiritual covenants, and cultural performance, they invite us to reconsider not only the mechanics of marriage but its very purpose.

A Marriage of Contrasts

Sexton, whose career has been built on dismantling the illusion of happily-ever-after, offers a perspective informed by decades in courtrooms where dreams go to die. “Marriage, at its core, is a legal contract,” he asserts—a document that binds two people under the weight of state regulation, where even the minutiae of a prenup can reshape lives. For Sexton, the promise of marriage is both a blessing and a curse; it is a commitment fraught with risks and legal entanglements, yet it remains a coveted emblem of personal validation and societal status.

In stark contrast, Lentz—whose journey from celebrity pastor to a man rebuilding his personal life has been public and painful—sees marriage as a deeply spiritual covenant. “It’s a commitment before God,” he explains, “a sacred bond that transcends mere legalities.” For Lentz, the institution is not simply about fulfilling contractual obligations but about forging a profound connection that shapes character, nurtures vulnerability, and calls on both partners to grow together despite inevitable imperfections.

The Paradox of Permanence

Their dialogue cuts to the heart of a modern paradox: although more than half of all marriages end in divorce, statistics also reveal that 86% of those who divorce find themselves remarried within five years. This ironic cycle suggests that while the dream of a perfect, everlasting union may be fading, the human desire for connection endures. Sexton’s blunt recounting of his courtroom experiences—where he has “facilitated the demise of thousands of marriages”—juxtaposes sharply with Lentz’s tender recounting of his own marital crisis and subsequent redemption. Both acknowledge that the fragility of marriage is not simply a failure of commitment, but rather a reflection of the human condition itself—a state of constant negotiation between our highest ideals and our most base instincts.

Communication, Vulnerability, and the Messiness of Love

One of the most compelling aspects of their conversation is the candid admission that neither partner in a marriage is ever wholly “complete” on their own. Sexton, who might be expected to revel in the bleak inevitability of divorce, instead emphasizes that the true failure of a marriage often lies in a deep-seated disconnection—between partners, from oneself, and even from one’s spiritual grounding. Lentz, drawing from his own journey of public scandal and private reconciliation, underscores the importance of open, honest dialogue. In his view, the secret to a thriving marriage lies in continuous, courageous communication that allows both individuals to confront their blind spots and support one another’s growth.

Their discussion also touches on the increasingly common debates around ethical non-monogamy and the cultural pressures that push young people into premature commitments. While neither offers a one-size-fits-all solution, they agree that simplistic narratives—whether from conservative or progressive voices—miss a crucial point: the need to cultivate genuine intimacy that is not dictated solely by external norms or legal necessities.

Educating the Next Generation: Shaping the Conversation on Marriage

Perhaps one of the most resonant takeaways from this dialogue is its implication for how we speak to boys, teenagers, and college men about marriage. In an age where superficial markers of success—be it celebrity status, material wealth, or fleeting romantic conquests—dominate social narratives, Sexton and Lentz challenge us to reframe the conversation from the ground up.

For young men, the lessons are manifold. Instead of being encouraged to view marriage as a mere rite of passage or an impulsive decision akin to choosing a car that you’ll drive for life, they are urged to understand marriage as a transformative covenant. This involves not only the legal and contractual aspects but also the spiritual, emotional, and relational dimensions that forge a lifelong bond. The conversation underscores the necessity of fostering a robust dialogue about commitment—one that transcends the shallow tropes of instant gratification and instead emphasizes self-awareness, disciplined vulnerability, and mutual growth.

Educators, mentors, and even parents are called upon to break the silence surrounding these topics. There is a pressing need to equip young men with the language and frameworks that allow them to engage with marriage in a mature, thoughtful manner. Whether it’s through structured conversations in college seminars, mentorship programs, or even candid discussions in everyday settings, the goal is to cultivate a generation that views marriage as an opportunity for deep personal and communal transformation rather than a transactional or purely status-driven arrangement.

A Broader Cultural Critique

Beyond the personal, the conversation serves as a broader cultural critique. Both speakers lament how modern society commodifies marriage—the “wedding industrial complex” that transforms a sacred vow into a series of staged, Instagram-ready events. They argue that while the state may recognize a union by the stroke of a pen, the true measure of a marriage’s worth is found in its capacity to foster resilience, empathy, and a shared journey toward self-discovery.

Sexton’s perspective is refreshingly unvarnished; his career, built on exposing the harsh realities behind polished wedding announcements, reminds us that marriage is as much about loss and compromise as it is about love and promise. Lentz’s narrative, steeped in the personal agony and eventual triumph of marital reconciliation, offers a counterpoint that is at once hopeful and sobering.

An Invitation to Rethink Commitment

Ultimately, the conversation between Sexton and Lentz is more than an exploration of legal contracts and spiritual vows—it is an invitation to reexamine our own definitions of commitment in a world that is both hyper-connected and profoundly isolating. In a society where celebrity marriages are dissected in endless news cycles and divorce is almost a rite of passage, these two voices challenge us to consider what it truly means to commit.

Is marriage simply a legal status, or is it an evolving, living covenant—a promise to remain open, honest, and vulnerable in the face of life’s inevitable storms? Their dialogue, rich with personal anecdotes and hard-won insights, offers no easy answers. Instead, it presents a tapestry of perspectives that together remind us that while our institutions may be flawed, the capacity for growth, forgiveness, and genuine intimacy remains one of our greatest assets.

For those willing to listen, the exchange between Sexton and Lentz is not just a discussion about marriage—it is a mirror held up to our collective hopes and vulnerabilities, challenging us to embrace a more honest, connected, and ultimately human approach to love.

Cultivating Future Husbands: Teaching Young Men About the Covenant of Marriage

In the midst of these probing conversations about love, commitment, and the legal versus spiritual dimensions of marriage, a critical question emerges: How do we equip our young men—boys, teenagers, and college students—with a profound, countercultural understanding of marriage? In many church communities today, the messages around relationships are often oversimplified or diluted by societal trends that equate masculinity with rugged independence or, conversely, with fleeting emotional expression. This narrow framing does a disservice to a generation on the cusp of forming lifelong commitments.

Churches are uniquely positioned to bridge this gap. They can serve as incubators for a richer, more holistic vision of what marriage can be—one that transcends the transactional and the momentary, emphasizing instead a covenantal bond that is as much about self-growth as it is about mutual commitment. Young men in these communities need mentorship that encourages them to look beyond superficial role models and embrace vulnerability, disciplined emotional expression, and a counterintuitive strength found in humility. Such guidance isn’t just about preparing for marriage; it’s about nurturing well-rounded, reflective individuals who value deep, enduring relationships.

This task calls for innovative teaching methods: intergenerational dialogue, immersive mentorship programs, and candid discussions that don’t shy away from the messy realities of love. By integrating biblical narratives with real-world challenges—highlighted so poignantly in the voices of Sexton and Lentz—churches can offer young men a blueprint for a mature, resilient approach to relationships. In doing so, they not only foster the next generation of committed husbands but also cultivate leaders who understand that true strength lies in connection and accountability—a lesson that reverberates far beyond the confines of the church walls.

[Announcement: Over the past few months, I’ve spoken at Redeemer Presbyterian Church(PCA)—Downtown, Tates Creek Presbyterian Church and Trinity Christian Academy in Lexington, KY, Christ Central (PCA) in Charlotte, NC, and with the men at RUF at Rutgers and Queens College on topics such as fatherhood, manhood, and raising boys in the church in light of the national "Boy Crisis," etc.

In April 2025, I’ll be speaking at Denver Presbyterian Church in Denver, CO. I’m currently scheduling more events for Fall 2025 and Spring 2026. If you’re interested in having me speak at your event or podcast, here. I’m donating my time to RUF chapters in 2025 and 2026].

1. Special thanks to Forrest Lee Horn for alerting me to this conversation.