This was very good. I have become increasingly convinced that virtue is fundamentally imparted through friendship. You cannot have virtuous men, without friendship.
I've had a wonderful experience watching my 9-year-old son learn from men in our parish as he serves in the altar during Divine Liturgy. Two sub-deacons have particularly invested in teaching him the basics of the Liturgy, how to follow along in the server book, what each element of the service means, and how to navigate special festal services, vigils, etc. I have watched this experience deepen and grow his self-confidence. It's also fun to watch him do things I wouldn't typically think 8- or 9-year-olds could or would want to do (for example, at the end of Holy Week, he and others actively served for 10 hours of services with the priest over the course of 2.5 days). While not a mentorship program per se, I see these relationships with older men as truly indispensable for his spiritual and emotional growth moving into his upcoming teen years.
As I read through your sketch of a church-based mentorship program model, I kept thinking: Isn’t this what would naturally happen if the grown men in churches were living as strong, sacrificial, and joyful men whose whole beings are being united to Christ? Do we have men in our churches who are ready to actually carry out this kind of lifestyle?
Great to hear that Grace!! This is so awesome to hear!! To your question, "Isn’t this what would naturally happen if the grown men in churches were living as strong, sacrificial, and joyful men whose whole beings are being united to Christ?" No, unfortunately it doesn't happen mainly because a lot of Protestant churches have Youth Ministry, which by design, isolates kids from the adults in the church so those types of relationships aren't able to be established. It's really sad.
The reason churches don't produce Christian men is that they are no longer Christian (with a very few exceptions.) They buy into the latest culture which is misandry and feminist. There is little difference between the modern pastor and psychologist. Moreover, church musicology is one hundred percent equivalent to secular musicology with the possible exception of infusion with drugs. It is definitely sex and rock 'n roll.
"Lads need more than just right information about the Triune God."
This line made me laugh ... the modern church doesn't teach doctrine AT ALL, in any form, ever. If you go to a church that teaches doctrine--and CORRECT doctrine--please let me know, because I want to try that church out. The only part of the modern church that cares about doctrine is mired in high Calvinism and postmillennialism--which is a shame.
I agree that we need action, but we also need serious doctrinal teaching. We've been railing against doctrinal teaching for so long there no-one even bothers any longer.
Hi Russ, thanks for your comment but you're not accurate in your assessment. I didn't say either/or. It's both/and, which is why I used the word "more." That is, in addition to! You are generally wrong about "the modern church" (whatever that means). What you said is probably true on non-denoms. What PCA or LCMS church does not teach doctrine at all to kids? This is simply not true at all that young guys aren't getting doctrine(esp., for those in Christian schools). Any child raised in a Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or any denomination with a confession is getting catechesis. "No-one even bothers anymore" is not true in the LCMS or the PCA because doctrinal training is directly tied to the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. This often happens at home. For example, in the PCA when parents walk their children through the Shorter Catechism (or one of the other children's catechisms) at home, doctrinal training is happening. I was raised in the UMC and we had confirmation class that required, etc. Again, what do we see in Exodus 4-6 or Jesus with the disciplines.
Now, I can't speak for non-denoms and or Baptist churches since the aren't confessional and don't have denomination-wide catechisms but if you ever want to see what this looks like, go to any PCA church and ask them what they do to prepare children to prepare for communion.
Do you really believe that a theological education that ends at around 12 years old, and perhaps adding a few weeks for a "new member's class" when you change churches is "too much education," and we need to stop those things so we can get into more "getting things done?"
IMHO, going through the Catechism when you're younger (around 11-12) is not serious training in theology.
I agree that you cannot "just learn theology," but it's also wrong to think that we can have 11-12 year old children memorize a few things, then feed them a lifetime of topical sermons, and think we've taught them any theology ... You need action, but you need to ground that action is an ever-growing knowledge of the truth.
I've been in Baptist churches my entire life, and hold an MA and Ph.D. from broadly Baptist seminaries. Even most churches that purport to teach from the Scriptures generally use the Scriptures as a jumping off point for topics like "be nice to people" and "go paint the local public school," rather than any real discussion of God or holiness ...
My point was--and is--that we have removed men's minds and we are shocked to find they turn into cowards who fail to do much about anything.
Don't move the goal posts. Ages 11-12 is not the only time it happens. Your comment, 1"1-12 year old children memorize a few things." Are you serious, since you all don't have a confession or a catechism, you many realize who condscending toward children and how got imprints things on the hear of the child. You also don't seem to believe this is true, "Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." Ever heard of that verse?
My guess, also, that you've never read the Westminster Shorter Catechism that kids learn. In a PCA or LCMS church, 11-12 is the beginning, not the end. That's just when it starts. Since you're a Baptist, it does make some sense to me that you'd have a lower view of catechesis for children since you all withhold baptism from them and don't take to too seriously as belong to church. So, it might be better not to project the deficiencies in the Baptist church and say, "the modern church." If you want to make your comments about Baptist churches then you're free to do but I spent 3 years teaching at Presbyterian Christian school and doctrine was what the kids learned during their junior year.
The PCA's college ministry, Reform University Fellowship, focuses on teaching the doctrines of grace. It's a doctrine focussed college ministry. That's it's brand! So your claims just aren't true for many denominations like the PCA and LCMS. So again, you're wrong. The LCMS church 100% focusses on teaching kids doctrine in Sunday school. I mean, given their ecclesiology that's just not even really possible.
You should rephrase, "that we have removed men's minds and we are shocked to find they turn into cowards who fail to do much about anything."
It should read, "that Baptists have removed men's minds and we are shocked to find they turn into cowards who fail to do much about anything." Because what you're you're talking about is not true in Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Anglican circles. Just because Baptists don't focus on doctrine for high school and college students does not mean that no one is. That's just not true.
I've read all the catechisms. Learning the catechisms is not learning the Scriptures, nor is is learning theology. It's telling that you think learning catechism==good theological education. As an example, pedobaptism has nothing to do with "caring about children," or "making certain they are educated," either historically or theologically.
Final point--I've dealt with, and deal with, college kids from almost every Christian tradition in college ministries, including Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Anglican. I've observed they have the catechisms memorized, but they really don't understand the Scriptures nor have a real grasp of theology.
Again, true action requires a foundation in true thought.
At any rate, I'm done ... feel free to snipe/get angry/whatever ... My experience, even with folks from the traditions you're touting, is far different than what web sites say.
Yeah, so "reading" a catechism and being saturated in a community of catechesis reinforcement and development are totally different things and, since you've only been in Baptist circles you're whole life, as you said, you have not idea what this looks like or how it functions. In PCA and LCMS churches catechesis is not divorced from learning the Bible. Again, name a PCA church that does not do this? You said, "but they really don't understand the Scriptures nor have a real grasp of theology." You don't know what they understand or know over their entire life times because what they learned up. I was in the my 40s before some of the stuff I heard older Christians say when I was a kid actually made sense. The Disciples, at minimum, didn't really understand who Jesus was until after the Resurrection and they were with him for three years.
Your very limited and anecdotal experience "college kids from almost every Christian tradition in college ministries" is pretty irrelevant because it's subjective and limited by your biases and blindspots. I could very easily show you a 100s of college students I've taught myself over the past 25 years of being in circles that you have no actual experience that would show you the opposite of what you're seeing. You don't know what you don't know, I guess.
This was very good. I have become increasingly convinced that virtue is fundamentally imparted through friendship. You cannot have virtuous men, without friendship.
Thanks for the kudos and you are so right!! Spot on!
I've had a wonderful experience watching my 9-year-old son learn from men in our parish as he serves in the altar during Divine Liturgy. Two sub-deacons have particularly invested in teaching him the basics of the Liturgy, how to follow along in the server book, what each element of the service means, and how to navigate special festal services, vigils, etc. I have watched this experience deepen and grow his self-confidence. It's also fun to watch him do things I wouldn't typically think 8- or 9-year-olds could or would want to do (for example, at the end of Holy Week, he and others actively served for 10 hours of services with the priest over the course of 2.5 days). While not a mentorship program per se, I see these relationships with older men as truly indispensable for his spiritual and emotional growth moving into his upcoming teen years.
As I read through your sketch of a church-based mentorship program model, I kept thinking: Isn’t this what would naturally happen if the grown men in churches were living as strong, sacrificial, and joyful men whose whole beings are being united to Christ? Do we have men in our churches who are ready to actually carry out this kind of lifestyle?
Great to hear that Grace!! This is so awesome to hear!! To your question, "Isn’t this what would naturally happen if the grown men in churches were living as strong, sacrificial, and joyful men whose whole beings are being united to Christ?" No, unfortunately it doesn't happen mainly because a lot of Protestant churches have Youth Ministry, which by design, isolates kids from the adults in the church so those types of relationships aren't able to be established. It's really sad.
Ah yes, that is really sad. So grateful you are pressing into this major gap. We need good men!!
Always thankful for the work you are doing, Dr. Bradley!
Thanks!!
The reason churches don't produce Christian men is that they are no longer Christian (with a very few exceptions.) They buy into the latest culture which is misandry and feminist. There is little difference between the modern pastor and psychologist. Moreover, church musicology is one hundred percent equivalent to secular musicology with the possible exception of infusion with drugs. It is definitely sex and rock 'n roll.
"Lads need more than just right information about the Triune God."
This line made me laugh ... the modern church doesn't teach doctrine AT ALL, in any form, ever. If you go to a church that teaches doctrine--and CORRECT doctrine--please let me know, because I want to try that church out. The only part of the modern church that cares about doctrine is mired in high Calvinism and postmillennialism--which is a shame.
I agree that we need action, but we also need serious doctrinal teaching. We've been railing against doctrinal teaching for so long there no-one even bothers any longer.
Hi Russ, thanks for your comment but you're not accurate in your assessment. I didn't say either/or. It's both/and, which is why I used the word "more." That is, in addition to! You are generally wrong about "the modern church" (whatever that means). What you said is probably true on non-denoms. What PCA or LCMS church does not teach doctrine at all to kids? This is simply not true at all that young guys aren't getting doctrine(esp., for those in Christian schools). Any child raised in a Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or any denomination with a confession is getting catechesis. "No-one even bothers anymore" is not true in the LCMS or the PCA because doctrinal training is directly tied to the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. This often happens at home. For example, in the PCA when parents walk their children through the Shorter Catechism (or one of the other children's catechisms) at home, doctrinal training is happening. I was raised in the UMC and we had confirmation class that required, etc. Again, what do we see in Exodus 4-6 or Jesus with the disciplines.
Now, I can't speak for non-denoms and or Baptist churches since the aren't confessional and don't have denomination-wide catechisms but if you ever want to see what this looks like, go to any PCA church and ask them what they do to prepare children to prepare for communion.
For example, if it's not happening at all, how to explain what this PCA church is doing? https://www.cpcjackson.org/2019/08/30/communicant-membership-class/
Do you really believe that a theological education that ends at around 12 years old, and perhaps adding a few weeks for a "new member's class" when you change churches is "too much education," and we need to stop those things so we can get into more "getting things done?"
IMHO, going through the Catechism when you're younger (around 11-12) is not serious training in theology.
I agree that you cannot "just learn theology," but it's also wrong to think that we can have 11-12 year old children memorize a few things, then feed them a lifetime of topical sermons, and think we've taught them any theology ... You need action, but you need to ground that action is an ever-growing knowledge of the truth.
I've been in Baptist churches my entire life, and hold an MA and Ph.D. from broadly Baptist seminaries. Even most churches that purport to teach from the Scriptures generally use the Scriptures as a jumping off point for topics like "be nice to people" and "go paint the local public school," rather than any real discussion of God or holiness ...
My point was--and is--that we have removed men's minds and we are shocked to find they turn into cowards who fail to do much about anything.
Don't move the goal posts. Ages 11-12 is not the only time it happens. Your comment, 1"1-12 year old children memorize a few things." Are you serious, since you all don't have a confession or a catechism, you many realize who condscending toward children and how got imprints things on the hear of the child. You also don't seem to believe this is true, "Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." Ever heard of that verse?
My guess, also, that you've never read the Westminster Shorter Catechism that kids learn. In a PCA or LCMS church, 11-12 is the beginning, not the end. That's just when it starts. Since you're a Baptist, it does make some sense to me that you'd have a lower view of catechesis for children since you all withhold baptism from them and don't take to too seriously as belong to church. So, it might be better not to project the deficiencies in the Baptist church and say, "the modern church." If you want to make your comments about Baptist churches then you're free to do but I spent 3 years teaching at Presbyterian Christian school and doctrine was what the kids learned during their junior year.
The PCA's college ministry, Reform University Fellowship, focuses on teaching the doctrines of grace. It's a doctrine focussed college ministry. That's it's brand! So your claims just aren't true for many denominations like the PCA and LCMS. So again, you're wrong. The LCMS church 100% focusses on teaching kids doctrine in Sunday school. I mean, given their ecclesiology that's just not even really possible.
You should rephrase, "that we have removed men's minds and we are shocked to find they turn into cowards who fail to do much about anything."
It should read, "that Baptists have removed men's minds and we are shocked to find they turn into cowards who fail to do much about anything." Because what you're you're talking about is not true in Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Anglican circles. Just because Baptists don't focus on doctrine for high school and college students does not mean that no one is. That's just not true.
I've read all the catechisms. Learning the catechisms is not learning the Scriptures, nor is is learning theology. It's telling that you think learning catechism==good theological education. As an example, pedobaptism has nothing to do with "caring about children," or "making certain they are educated," either historically or theologically.
Final point--I've dealt with, and deal with, college kids from almost every Christian tradition in college ministries, including Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Anglican. I've observed they have the catechisms memorized, but they really don't understand the Scriptures nor have a real grasp of theology.
Again, true action requires a foundation in true thought.
At any rate, I'm done ... feel free to snipe/get angry/whatever ... My experience, even with folks from the traditions you're touting, is far different than what web sites say.
Yeah, so "reading" a catechism and being saturated in a community of catechesis reinforcement and development are totally different things and, since you've only been in Baptist circles you're whole life, as you said, you have not idea what this looks like or how it functions. In PCA and LCMS churches catechesis is not divorced from learning the Bible. Again, name a PCA church that does not do this? You said, "but they really don't understand the Scriptures nor have a real grasp of theology." You don't know what they understand or know over their entire life times because what they learned up. I was in the my 40s before some of the stuff I heard older Christians say when I was a kid actually made sense. The Disciples, at minimum, didn't really understand who Jesus was until after the Resurrection and they were with him for three years.
Your very limited and anecdotal experience "college kids from almost every Christian tradition in college ministries" is pretty irrelevant because it's subjective and limited by your biases and blindspots. I could very easily show you a 100s of college students I've taught myself over the past 25 years of being in circles that you have no actual experience that would show you the opposite of what you're seeing. You don't know what you don't know, I guess.
https://www.henryford.com/mimind/blog/language-matters
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
https://www.irmi.com/articles/expert-commentary/language-matters-why-we-dont-say-committed-suicide
https://speakingofsuicide.com/2017/09/21/suicide-language/